I think Markos (Μάρκος) has a great idea here. Using ancient Greek for conversational purposes, asking questions and giving answers in Greek, playing back-and-forth, telling stories. This is the best way to internalize the language. I'm going to watch more of his stories on Youtube to see how he goes about it. He's been encouraging me to make my own videos in Greek, but I don't have the cojones to do it yet.
At our school we start simple - "What's your name?" "My name's Bob." "What's your job?" "I'm a manager." "How do you do?" "Who's that?" "That's Jane." "What's her job?" "She's a doctor." If I could learn to communicate on this basic level in Greek, I'd be happy. The problem is - how do we communicate even such a thing as "a manager" in the language? How do you ask someone what his/her job is? I'm sure there's a way, but I don't have a clue. I really have a lot of bases to cover before I go making any Greek videos!
But, with all the vocab that Complete Ancient Greek is throwing at me, perhaps it will be sooner than I expect!
ἔρρωσθε,
Ἰάσων
At our school we start simple - "What's your name?" "My name's Bob." "What's your job?" "I'm a manager." "How do you do?" "Who's that?" "That's Jane." "What's her job?" "She's a doctor." If I could learn to communicate on this basic level in Greek, I'd be happy. The problem is - how do we communicate even such a thing as "a manager" in the language? How do you ask someone what his/her job is? I'm sure there's a way, but I don't have a clue. I really have a lot of bases to cover before I go making any Greek videos!
But, with all the vocab that Complete Ancient Greek is throwing at me, perhaps it will be sooner than I expect!
ἔρρωσθε,
Ἰάσων
"What is your job is Τίς εργασία σου; Manager is οικονομος (or something close to that. I did not look it up to check.)
ReplyDeleteActually, not knowing how to say something in Ancient Greek is rarely the problem. Usually there are three or four ways to say something. A Modern Greek dictionary is really all you need, because you can easily change the form back into something ancient. I think the fact that you learned to be fluent in Hebrew will make it easier for you to speak Greek than most people. All it really takes is commitment, and I know you have that.
Thanks a lot, Markos. That's very good. As far as οικονομος is concerned, that's also for a job outside of the home? I understand that it is used for someone who directs the affairs of the home.
ReplyDeleteMeaning is determined by usage. If you use οικονομος in that way, then that is what it means.
ReplyDeleteMore to the point, if you just use a word like οικονομος without agonizing over how "authentic" it is, within a few days you will read the word in real Greek. Then you can decide how accurate your usage is, and adjust it down the line. But if you don't take the leap to use Greek, even poorly, you will not take advantage of this type of learning. But I don't have to tell you this. Instead, I have a question for you. How helpful is knowing how to speak Hebrew for reading the Hebrew Bible? I only have a smattering of Biblical Hebrew, and no Modern.
I can read narrative portions of the Bible without any hesitation. But biblical Hebrew and modern Hebrew are much closer in both structure and vocabulary than ancient and modern Greek. The language didn't have time to evolve naturally, since it died as a spoken (first) language.
ReplyDeleteWhen it was revived, Ben Yehudah chose to revive more ancient forms (such as אנחנו instead of אנו of Mishnaic Hebrew, reversion to the ־ים for masculine plural instead of the ־ין of Mishnaic Hebrew). This means that modern Hebrew is closer in form to the Bible than even the Hebrew of the Mishnaic period, which actually about by natural change.
I find that speaking Hebrew (having internalized it) makes the stories in the Bible come to life. I can read it and laugh when I think necessary and cry when it hits me. The first time I read the Joseph story in Genesis in Hebrew, I cried when he revealed himself to his brothers. The language just felt more emotional than it did when I read the same thing in English. There's just something about it!
ἔγραψα·
ReplyDelete"This means that modern Hebrew is closer in form to the Bible than even the Hebrew of the Mishnaic period, which actually about by natural change."
I meant: "which actually *came* about...." (typo)
Yes I knew that Ancient Greek and Modern Greek differ much more than Biblical Hebrew and Modern Hebrew do. The consensus of most people is that Modern Greek is really a different language, which is why one has to take the trouble to TRY, at least, to learn to speak Ancient Greek. I guess I would just say that you have an advantage in terms of motivation as you can see how much speaking a language can help with reading.
ReplyDeleteHere's one more question that I have often wondered about. When we learn Greek, we make a big deal about where to put the stress. The stress jumps around to a maddening degree, to the point where one word can be accented on three different syllables depending on what form. e. γυνὴ γυναῖκα γύναι. Then you've got enclitics which even further complicate stress. But in English, we really only use stress as emphasis, or more to the point, since we have so many one syllabled words, stress is really not a factor UNLESS we want to emphasize a word. So, when you speak Ancient Greek, it becomes natural to stress a syllable for emphasis. In my video, when I ask Christa τί ονομα σου I said ti onoma SOU? because I had just talked about Lincoln's name and I wanted to stress that I was asking what is YOUR name. I know that ti OnoMA sou? is actually correct, but I was in communication, not grammar, mode.
So my question is, I know that in Hebrew they use stress less as well, in that stress is usually on the final syllable. But do Hebrew speaker's break this rule when trying to emphasize certain words? I really should ask a Modern Greek speaker, but it has been something I have been thinking about since you guys had the discussion of accents on Greek Study. I have no doubt, by the way, that if we all just agreed to stress Greek on the first or last syllable, or stress it on the syllable with the most root meaning, or stress it on any syllable we wanted, learning to speak and read Greek would be much easier. What we do now is to artificially overemphasize stress to the detriment of meaning.
Yeah, I think I would naturally say τί ὄνομά σου, with the final stress added to ὄνομα even. I've just gotten used to doing that when there's an enclitic. At least, that's how it naturally comes out when I read. I don't know how it would work if I was speaking rather than reading!
ReplyDeleteIn biblical Hebrew, the heavy past-tense verb endings -tem (2mp) and -ten (2fp) take the stress in a word. הלכתם ha-lach-TEM and הלכתן ha-lach-TEN (both "you (pl) went"). In modern Hebrew, the stress has been put on the penult (ha-LACH-tem and ha-LACH-ten) for whatever reason. There are also a lot more words that are stressed on the penult in modern Hebrew, and most modern names are pronounced this way, too (MO-she instead of biblical mo-SHE; DA-vid instead of biblical da-VID; etc.). The stress in a word can be adjusted if you're trying to emphasize that specific syllable because it's different from what someone's understanding you to mean. But, normally the accents don't shift in Hebrew, though phrase stress will be adjusted for questions and other non-indicative intentions.
I see that γυνή > γυναῖκος > γύναι might be a pain in the butt, as well as the fact that feminine 1-decl nouns in genitive plural pull the accent to the end for whatever reasons, while the adjectives of the same form don't. I don't think the accents are so troublesome, though, as to cause me much trouble. I learned the accentuation rules early on... I was memorizing them at 17 years old from Mounce's MORPHOLOGY OF BIBLICAL GREEK (which book I truly enjoyed as a late teenager).
You see, I studied Greek alone my last year of high school from Mounce's BASICS OF BIBLICAL GREEK and MORPHOLOGY, along with the workbook. I basically memorized paradigms (writing it all out on paper), vocabulary and the chapter topics. I had up to chapter 21 memorized (and I seriously mean that -- you could ask me what chapter a given vocabulary word was given in, what grammatical feature was treated in which chapter, what the "Exegetical Insight" for a certain chapter was -- I had it all in my head!). That meant that by the time I got to college, where the textbook was that of Mounce, I entered right into Greek 101 and spent the next semester snoozing away in Greek class!! Only in the second semester did they catch up to what I did in high school on my own.
I took two and a half (almost three) years of Greek. I was actually in the middle of my sixth semester when I was expelled from Bible college (for not believing in Jesus and for other personal choices that went against their student handbook), so I never got to finish my Greek studies (or my Hebrew studies, for that matter) as an undergraduate. From that point, I basically gave up Greek -- since it was connected with the NT in my mind. My job in the last bit of time that I've returned to studying Greek has been to disconnect "Greek" from "New Testament" so that I can think of Greek without thinking of Paul or James or Peter.
I think I'm finally at that point, so I think I'm emotionally and psychologically ready to get deeper into Greek. I can relate vocab and structures to the NT without being emotionally engaged in the discussion. That's a huge improvement for me. It's been nearly 10 years since I was expelled from that college. So I've got a ten-year gap in my Greek reading.
It's about time to close up those gaps and make Greek a living language for myself!! :-)
Hey, Jason, I had a totally unrelated question. If you still have Mounce's Morphology of Biblical Greek, I wanted you to look something up for me. I know that he lists nouns by type, but I forgot how specific he gets. I want to know how many nouns in the Greek NT there are that are like ἄκανθα, a fem noun with an accent on the antepenult that ends in a short alpha. If you don't have the book anymore, don't worry about it.
ReplyDeleteNope. All of my Mounce books were left in the States in a storage locker, along with so many beloved books from the past. I went to visit my family in December and picked up a load of books to bring to Israel with me (including Smyth and a couple other Greek works). But Mounce had to stay. When I go back in December to visit again (בעזרת השם), I'll bring back a few more things with me -- and I'll try to find the Morphology to bring it back, too. :)
ReplyDelete